Talk:Her Child, but Not His

Previous page history was archived for backup purposes at Trope Workshop talk:The Seed Is Strong/LQT Archive 1 on 2016-05-31.

On the grounds that it is racist. Not "might be" - is.

@Agiletek @GentlemensDame883 @HeneryVII @Ilikecomputers @Jlaw @Lequinni‎ @RivetVermin @Umbire the Phantom @Utini501 @Labster @Looney Toons @GethN7 @Robkelk @QuestionableSanity @Derivative @SelfCloak

Yes. Vote to remove

Vote no.

I can't put my finger on what, but there's something in the original image that mildly annoys me. I don't like the facial expressions in the image, hence the yes vote.

Admittedly, it does reference a common racist cliché. That said, it's still a perfectly valid illustration of the point of the trope. I'm loath to kill something simply on the grounds of being in bad taste, but I won't oppose it. That said, I'd prefer we had something better to replace it with if we did remove it.

Well, I found a replacement, but the tropers voted down its use. Hence this vote to delete the racist cliché without a replacement.

As mentioned, it does reference a common racist canard, albeit one that can be grounded in a fair degree of truth, hence my divided opinion. Overall, I'm not going to go to the wall over it, and if the community really wants to remove it, then I won't stand in their way.

Considering the other proposal to replace got shot down, I don't think there will be another viable option for quite a while. It already took a long time to find the previous image. I don't think a new option will come along any time soon.

The point is that the kid resembles neither of the supposed parents and instead obviously resembles a third, very different person. So I say no, because I strongly believe it's not racist.

If they were humans instead of milk bottles, would your belief be the same? Why or why not?

Voting no.

Voting to remove.

While the image can be seen as racist when extrapolating cartoon bottles into human beings, it is probably one of the less offensive images that show the point of the trope across. I'm holding my vote until suitable image replacements are proposed.

Motion to replace the current racist image was defeated.

As discussed in the "vs Chocolate Baby" thread, the image is inherently racist and should be changed. We had an image picking thread on the forums, but the forums are inaccessible because of a security issue. Thus, here;s a replacement image picking thread.

It's taken this long to find a possible replacement: https://omaketheater.com/comic/326/

However, said possible replacement requires some knowledge of how colours mix in pigments. Is this a decent substitution?

@Goo Monster @Labster @Looney Toons @GethN7 @Robkelk @QuestionableSanity @Derivative @SelfCloak

I like that, and it's fairly intuitive to figure out.

Genuinely hard-pressed to imagine anyone not aware of that info, even with Small Reference Pools.

How is the current image racist? The baby of infidelity is (half-)black because that makes the infidelity obvious, nothing else.

There's the strong implication that only black men do this, which is factually incorrect.

Yeah, it was even discussed some years prior in the previous thread on this talk page - at best it's rife with Unfortunate Implications, which are easily avoidable regardless of whether or not I would be personally offended by it.

I'm okay with the new image.

I don't like the alternate suggestion. Too long, and too dependent on the facial expression (easily lost at thumbnail size).

The image is only 360 pixels wide - why would we thumbnail it? EDIT: And a long image would fill up some of that whitespace beside the table of contents.

Recapping so far: GethN7, Looney Tunes, and I are in favour of replacing the image with my suggestion; Agiltek doesn't like the new image, Umbrie hasn't cast a vote.

Looking for more votes, one way or the other. @GentlemensDame883 @HeneryVII @Ilikecomputers @Jlaw @Lequinni‎ @RivetVermin @Utini501

I'm not the biggest fan of the new image, but I'm even less of a fan of the original one. Voting yes.

I like the new imager better. Voting yes.

I don't see anything racist about the initial image either, and honestly the takeaway that "the baby is half black (or literally chocolate in this case) ergo ALL black men are lustful homewreckers" is a huge reach. It's a silly milk-based visual gag and I'm really not thrilled with the prospect of replacing the image because some people might read something offensive into it. So yeah, I'm voting to keep it.

Please don't put words in my mouth.

What I said was "There's the strong implication that only black men do this, which is factually incorrect."

I don't know how you started from there and got to "all black men".

@Utini501, does your vote stand based on the clarification given here?

I think we're jumping five steps straight in "racism moral panic" territory by replacing an image simply because a black character is portrayed as a homewrecker.

So, @HornyLikeIAmA14YearOldGirl, yes or no? Or are you just here to comment and we should treat this as an "abstain"?

The answer is no.

No, I don't feel the need for a change.

Motion has been defeated.

And I was so hoping to get rid of that racist image, too.

I don't see how this trope is any different from Chocolate Baby. I didn't know about the Chocolate Baby page when I made this trope submission. As such, I think we should delete this page (or turn it into a redirect to Chocolate Baby).

And apparently none of the staff caught it either...

Before we do anything to this page, I'd suggestion you compare the examples on both and transplant anything here that isn't there. Once that's done we can turn this into a redirect.

CC: @Labster, @GethN7, @Robkelk, @QuestionableSanity, @Derivative, @SelfCloak

Which name is the better one? Neither is "what it says on the tin", but at least this one doesn't specify a particular skin colour for the infant.

I like Chocolate Baby because in the absence of other factors, it will keep things consistent with TvTropes and the Chocolate Baby page has been around a lot longer. I don't think the mention of skin color is a big issue. If you (or someone else) thinks of a name that is better than both Chocolate Baby and The Seed Is Strong, we can use that.

"Her Child, but Not His", maybe?

How likely is it that people will assume that it means something else (or applies in situations it shouldn't), like a woman getting pregnant from a sperm bank because her consenting husband is sterile?

Good point.

Mind you, "Chocolate Baby" can be mistaken for a confection. (I might be thinking that because I still have a chocolate Easter bunny on my desk.)

There might not be a perfect name.

Consistency with TVT is never a consideration for what we choose to do, otherwise we would have never forked.

Okay, reviving this more than a year after it was abandoned. We need to reconcile these two tropes. Pinging the other mods.

@Labster @Looney Toons @GethN7 @QuestionableSanity @Derivative @SelfCloak @Robkelk

I like Rob's suggestion for the name change and agree these should be merged.

"Her Child, but Not His", you mean? Yeah, that works for me.

Given a year to consider, I now realize why I dislike the name "Chocolate Baby" - it's inherently racist. We definitely need to rename it.

For the same reason we might want to do something about the page image.

Image picking thread started.

Both pages merged under the new name.

And the crowd goes wild!

Thanks, Rob.

...assuming everyone agrees that it's separate enough from Cheating with the Milkman.

Look at Cheating with the Milkman -- there's definitely shared elements between the two.

I was aware of Cheating with the Milkman. While it looks like there is more connection than I first thought, I still think that this trope is distinct enough from the main point of Cheating with the Milkman.

I don't like the current name. I don't think the connection to the trope is obvious enough. Feel free to submit suggestions as a response or back the current title or one suggested title.

I don't like the current name. I don't think the connection to the trope is obvious enough. Feel free to submit suggestions as a response or back the current title or one suggested title.