Automoderated users, Autopatrolled users, Bureaucrats, Comment administrators, Confirmed users, Moderators, Rollbackers, Administrators
214,447
edits
Grey and Gray Morality: Difference between revisions
→Anime and Manga
(update links) |
|||
| (7 intermediate revisions by 6 users not shown) | |||
Line 1:
{{trope}}
{{quote|'''Wesley:''' There is a line, Lilah, black and white, good and evil.
'''Lilah:''' Funny thing about black and white. You mix it together and you get grey. And it doesn't matter how much white you try and put back in, you're never gonna get anything but grey.
|''[[Angel]]'', "Habeas Corpses"}}
In an all-grey conflict, neither side is [[Black and White Morality|totally good or completely evil]]. Both sides have a strong, justifiable reason for fighting, and contain a mixture of people of all kinds, from admirable, upstanding individuals to vicious, slimy scumbags.
Line 18 ⟶ 19:
Any betrayals within a [[Grey and Grey Morality]] Universe will, by their very nature, be [[Hazy Feel Turn]]s.
{{examples}}▼
▲{{examples}}
== Anime
* The entire Mahorafest arc of ''[[Mahou Sensei Negima]]'' fell under this, with the main characters unsure of whether they should allow [[The Masquerade]] to be permanently broken. {{spoiler|Negi eventually just accepts that [[Dirty Business|he might be the bad guy in this arc]] and stops the [[Anti-Villain|bad guy]] because she doesn't give him a good reason why he should let her continue.}}
** Later events {{spoiler|show pretty unambiguously that Chao could have improved on the actual outcome, if allowed to win. The best argument against her is "But she might get corrupted by power". Well, and the fact that even when she explained what was going on, she downplayed it to such a level that it didn't seem worth the risk to let her succeed.}}
Line 59 ⟶ 60:
* Given [[Real Life]] history, the Nations of ''[[Axis Powers Hetalia]]'' are definitely this. As everyone's shown to be good-at-heart in their own ways, not one of them is portrayed as utterly evil, including Ivan/Russia. This doesn't stop [[Dark Fic]] writers from making [[complete Monster]]s of them, however,
* ''[[Magic Knight Rayearth]]'' has each side (or country, in season 2) fighting for what they believe is right. All of them meant well. None of them wanted to deliberately do evil. Yet each one had goals that would have eventually hurt others- even though it may have benefited somebody in the end.
* ''[[Getter Robo]]'' villains are at best [[Anti-Villain|Anti Villains]], at worst [[Well-Intentioned Extremist|Well Intentioned Extremists]]. The only villains that crossed the [[Complete Monster]] line are [[Human Are Bastards|human]], and really, its hard too see how the villains are "evil" especialy in the manga when most of them consist of the villain fighting for the happiness of their people, or trying to SAVE the world, complete with several [[Heroic Sacrifice]] to save the world. The only explanation for their status as villains are the fact that they are not human.
* The feuding ninja clans of ''[[Basilisk]]'' are equally honorable and treacherous. As are the heirs' nannies who instigated the contests with their own intrigues. The [[Treacherous Advisor]] / [[Big Bad]] wasn't in support of either side so much as conflict for the sake of pain and misery. {{spoiler|In that sense, even though defeated, he won in the end.}}
* Outside of ''[[Princess Principal]]''{{'}}s titular Team Principal, it's hard to call one side the "good guys" and the other the "bad guys". The Commonwealth and the Kingdom both have sympathetic and villainous people among them and by turns the girls may find themselves threatened by ostensible allies and aided by technical enemies. This is no doubt to emphasize the [[Cold War]] parallels in the story, as well as to underline how both sides are [[Not So Different]] from each other – a definite advantage when Princess Charlotte's plan is to eventually reunite them.
▲== Comics ==
* [[Marvel Comics|Marvel's]] [[Civil War (Comic Book)|Civil War]]
* ''[[Watchmen (comics)|Watchmen]]''. Dr. Manhattan is the larval form of an [[Eldritch Abomination]], both Rorschach and the Comedian are [[Heroic Sociopath|heroic sociopaths]] , and {{spoiler|Ozymandias}} is an [[Anti-Villain]] [[Well-Intentioned Extremist]]. None of the main characters is unambiguously villainous, but even Nite Owl and Silk Spectre are [[Anti-Hero|antiheroes]]. To quote Zack Snyder, director of the movie adaptation, "Superman doesn't care about humanity, Batman can't get it up, and the bad guy wants world peace."
* IDW's [[Transformers|Megatron: Origin]] miniseries shows the series's iconic [[Evil Overlord]]'s rise to power from a laid-off energon miner through underground [[Blood Sport|gladiator]] to the leader of a rebellion against a corrupt Cybertronian senate, with the Autobot Security Services presented as an incompetent and in some cases fascistic police force under the control of the aforementioned senate.
** Before this the Dreamwave comic series revealed that the Autobot ruling council were servants of the Quintessons, the Transformers' entire history was a lie told to keep the Autobots in line and Megatron, having found all this out, forced the Decepticons to try and free his people and to bring order to the universe, albeit through very [[Knight Templar]] behavior.
* ''[[World War Hulk]]'': Warbound vs Illuminati. The Illuminati weren't guilty of the crime that Hulk was avenging, but they ''were'' the reason he was on Sakaar in the first place.
* ''[[Scalped]]''. Dash is an [[Anti-Hero]] at best, and Red Crow has many shades of being an [[Anti-Villain]]. He definitely faces enough [[Complete Monster|complete monsters]] that it's hard to pin him as the worst thing that could happen to the Rez.
* ''[[Superman: Red Son]]'': [[Superman]] is a totalitarian dictator, [[Thou Shalt Not Kill|but values human life enough to never kill anybody]] and - to himself, at least - has humanity's best interests at heart, while [[Lex Luthor]] is totally obsessed with bringing Superman down rather than liberating humanity from Superman's yoke.
Line 74 ⟶ 75:
==
* ''[[Tiberium Wars]]'' portrays both the Global Defense Initiative ''and'' the Brotherhood of Nod in sympathetic light, with Nod being presented as desperate and angry and vengeful for the wrongs GDI has perpetuated on them, and GDI being presented as [[Well-Intentioned Extremist|Well Intentioned Extremists]] who nonetheless are trying to protect the world and defend themselves against Nod aggression.
* It should come as no surprise, but the crossover fanfic ''[[Renegade (fanfic)|Renegade]]'' by the same author does the same thing, with the same factions. In fact, both factions are presented as protagonists, with the Brotherhood of Nod intervening in the slaver raid on Elysium and with {{spoiler|Kane himself}} attempting to negotiate a compromise between GDI and the Citadel. Of course, {{spoiler|Nod apparently stole the Tacitus on Eden Prime}}, which ''caused'' said conflict between GDI and the Citadel and allowed {{spoiler|Kane}} to score points by negotiating said compromise, so it might have [[The Plan|been part of the plan....]]
Line 157 ⟶ 158:
*** [[Fridge Brilliance|The joke makes a lot of sense in hindsight]] given that Londo and the Centauri are initially portrayed almost wholly sympathetically, while G'kar and the Narn are portrayed very much as villainous. By the end of the second season, however, both the characters' and audience's sympathies have completely reversed (in part thanks to Londo making a [[Deal with the Devil]]). By the end of the fourth season, it's no longer clear who's the hero or the villain in the perpetual conflict - which was almost certainly the intention of Stracyzinski from the very beginning.
* The [[The Cavalier Years|English Civil War]] drama ''By the Sword Divided''. There are some obviously 'good' characters, but none of them are perfect, while no one is shown as an out-and-out villain either.
* The new ''[[Battlestar Galactica
* In various seasons of ''[[Survivor (TV series)|Survivor]]'', the final two (three in more recent seasons) was often seen as this, both (or all three) people pretty much annoyed the Jury and they wound up voting for who they viewed as the lesser evil.
** ''Marquesas'' is perhaps one of the ''best'' examples of this trope; Neleh admittedly didn't start playing the game until Day 24 and glided through on other peoples' shoulders, while Vecepia flip-flopped enough times to make everyone question where she stood, and won because everyone was mad at Neleh.
Line 242 ⟶ 243:
*** If you manage to find a hidden report {{spoiler|in the Aldmeri Embassy}}, you find out {{spoiler|that used to support the Stormcloaks}}, having manipulated {{spoiler|Ulfric Stormcloak when he was young}} and thus causing the current conflict. In effect, it's not in their interest for ''either'' side to win, but to draw out the civil war as long as possible, weakening the most powerful and stable province left in the Empire to the point where it'll be easy pickings for them to move in and take over. However, {{spoiler|Ulfric}} has cut ties and is classified as rogue, implying that {{spoiler|he either used the Thalmor in an attempt to get an independent Skyrim or has grown sympathetic to his own cause}}.
** ''Daggerfall'' is full of this. About the only morally unambigious choice in the end-game is to aid the Underking, and then only because his goal is to finally ''[[Undeath Always Ends|die]]'' rather than to actually use Numidium. There are several candidates for [[Complete Monster]], and you ''will'' aid at least one of them out of your own free will, without being fooled, over the course of the main storyline.
* ''[[Mass Effect]]'' doesn't have a lot of easy choices. Except for many pirates and mercenaries who murder indiscriminately for money, most opponents are [[Well
* When it comes to player races, ''[[World of Warcraft]]'' is surprisingly nuanced in terms of morality. Neither the Horde nor the Alliance have exclusive claims to goodness or evil, though the tauren and the draenei (one for each side, naturally, although for the tauren this is usually [[Gameplay and Story Segregation]], as the 5% hp buff and their racial stun ability makes them very appealing to people who like [[PvP]], and so tauren players are usually the most vicious of the lot) are both pretty much objectively good. Originally the Horde were very much [[The Horde|their namesake trope]], while the Alliance were [[The Alliance|theirs]]. However, the Horde redeemed itself, but both sides still have problems with each other and thus fighting between them still continues.
* ''[[Battle for Wesnoth]]'' has this in the campaign Descent into Darkness. You control a young mage apprentice who takes up dark magic (read: animating corpses) to defend his town, and is exiled. His sister, the town guard, holy knights who show up for no reason but to piss you off in the hardest mission of the campaign all wish to have him killed. He takes revenge on them. In the end, it's mostly black versus black or black versus grey (with you playing the part of a very borderline black) but until they drop an anvil on you and have you fight endlessly repeating (and rather easy) battles against random commanders, you never genuinely know who to root for.
Line 321 ⟶ 322:
* In ''[[Dark Souls]]'', the central conflict in the game is extremely lacking in details, but what details we do know ultimately make it an example of this.
* ''[[PlanetSide]]''. Three factions [[Forever War|endlessly fighting]] over a tiny ball of rock god-know-where chuck full of alien technology, using [[Back from the Dead|respawning technology]] to keep the war going. The Terran Republic established a thousand years of peace on Earth - while sacrificing freedom. The New Conglomerate rebelled for more personal freedom, but they are backed by by large [[Mega Corp|corporations]] and [[Private Military Contractor|mercenaries]]). The Vanu Sovereignty wants to uplift humanity to the status of the ancient [[Absent Aliens|Vanu]] - but possibly at the cost of your [[Cybernetics Eat Your Soul|identity and freedom.]]
* ''[[NieR]]'' follows this nicely, with all sides being ruthless but having legitimate reasons for why they do what they do. Nier himself wants to save his daughter {{spoiler|but dooms humanity in the process}}, {{spoiler|Devola and Popola want to complete the Gestalt Project and save humanity}}, and the Shadowlord {{spoiler|wants to save ''his'' daughter, and his existence was the thing that kept the last remnants of humanity (the Shades) sane.}}
** The sequel, ''[[NieR: Automata]]'', has also this. Both Androids and Machine Lifeforms are stuck in a war with no end in sight, {{spoiler|being manipulated into fighting each other to give them a reason to exist after humanity's extinction.}} The Machines have been shown to experience emotions and how they live with them, being either completely pacifistic (Pascal and his village) or hostile but with legitimate and borderline [[Tragic Villain|tragic]] motivations (Simone/Beauvoir and Eve). By contrast, the Androids are shown to be incredibly racist towards them and have the same capacity to be antagonistic as the Machines, {{spoiler|as evident by 9S's [[Sanity Slippage]].}} Finally, the final conflict is between {{spoiler|the two remaining protagonists, [[The Cynic|A2]] and [[Woobie, Destroyer of Worlds|9S]], who each act out of love and respect for [[Decoy Protagonist|2B]] and a desire to end the vicious cycle they're trapped in, with A2 being [[A Lighter Shade of Grey]] due to her wanting to protect everyone (including 9S himself) to fulfill 2B's final request; and 9S wanting to destroy everything out of sheer despair over 2B's death and the [[Awful Truth]] about their mission.}}
== Web Comics ==
Line 332 ⟶ 334:
* The main characters of ''[[Narbonic]]'' are a mad scientist, her henchwoman who loves to destroy things, her henchman with a deep dark secret not even he knows, and a superintelligent gerbil whose efforts to do good often cause more havoc and chaos than some of the evil plans afoot.
** In [[Spiritual Sequel]] (and, we eventually find out, actual sequel) [[Skin Horse]], there's somewhat more of the same; again, surrounding Artie. Specifically, transgenic rights activists that fall into two main camps: Older transgenics, like Artie, who favor peaceful resolution through debate, but some are [[Blue and Orange Morality|insane by any human standard and quite possibly by their own as well]], and [[Good Is Not Nice|not all of them are necessarily nice people]]; and younger ones, who overall tend to be more personable in their outward attitude, but aren't above using a little terrorism to achieve their ends, and also [[Not So Different|some are insane by any human standard and quite possibly their own]].
* In ''[[Sinfest]]'', [
* [[The Kingfisher]]: Both Theodore and his sworn enemies - the vampire progenitors - are uncanny, manipulative, and monstrous. It's telling that the protagonist has not committed to a side.
Line 367 ⟶ 369:
** The war between the Spanish and Aztecs; both sides had strengths but also had abominable elements. One recurring theme with Native American history is that the natives are always portrayed as peace-loving pacifists who were just fighting back...however, with the war between the Spanish and the Aztec, over ''twice'' the army conquering the Aztecs were in fact natives (Especially the Tlxcalans) who sided with the Spanish. The Aztecs weren't exactly popular. Likewise, a moral strength of Spain that tends to get glossed over is the fact that Cortes had wanted to maintain the social structure of the empire, and had he gotten his way, the Aztecs basically would have been Spanish Citizens.
*** Likewise, the Nagorno-Karabakh conflict between Armenia and Azerbaijan after [[The Great Politics Mess-Up]], which quickly turned ugly for both sides with ethnic massacres all around, and was started thanks to [[Joseph Stalin]] some 50 years prior when he gave a mostly Armenian-populated province to the Azerbaijani SSR. The fact that the conflict has been frozen and unsolved since 1994 has just given time for the hatred between the two countries to fester.
** [[World War I]] is generally seen as a premiere example of this as in contrast to [[World War II|the sequel 20 years later]], which could be considered a case of [[Black and Gray Morality]].
| |||