Disney Ducks Comic Universe: Difference between revisions

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Character list can be found [[Disney Ducks Comic Universe/Characters|here]].
Character list can be found [[Disney Ducks Comic Universe/Characters|here]].
{{examples|Examples:}}
{{examples}}
* [[Adaptation Expansion]]: Of the [[Classic Disney Shorts]], utilizing several characters introduced there but giving them a more coherent setting and introducing numerous new characters.
* [[Adaptation Expansion]]: Of the [[Classic Disney Shorts]], utilizing several characters introduced there but giving them a more coherent setting and introducing numerous new characters.
* [[Always Identical Twins]]: Huey, Dewey and Louie naturally. It's especially evident in many of the comics storylines, as a lot of the time instead of their trademark red, blue and green the three of them wear identical black shirts.
* [[Always Identical Twins]]: Huey, Dewey and Louie naturally. It's especially evident in many of the comics storylines, as a lot of the time instead of their trademark red, blue and green the three of them wear identical black shirts.
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* [[Cool Old Guy]] / [[Cool Uncle]]: Scrooge, all the way.
* [[Cool Old Guy]] / [[Cool Uncle]]: Scrooge, all the way.
** Once [[Character Development]] brings him out of being the crusty, skinflint, gouging, near-heartless old miser that he is when [[Carl Barks]] first introduces him to the Ducks Universe, anyway.
** Once [[Character Development]] brings him out of being the crusty, skinflint, gouging, near-heartless old miser that he is when [[Carl Barks]] first introduces him to the Ducks Universe, anyway.
* [[Crouching Moron Hidden Badass]]: Donald is the most prominent example of this, most notably when he changes into the Duck Avenger, though he has plenty of [[Badass]] moments even when he's just himself.
* [[Crouching Moron, Hidden Badass]]: Donald is the most prominent example of this, most notably when he changes into the Duck Avenger, though he has plenty of [[Badass]] moments even when he's just himself.
** Fethry is a less prominent version of the trope, as he usually succeeds by accident, but he has his moments of this as well.
** Fethry is a less prominent version of the trope, as he usually succeeds by accident, but he has his moments of this as well.
** Even the Beagle Boys will, [[Depending On the Writer]], sometimes display surprising competense and appear as a credible threat to Scrooge.
** Even the Beagle Boys will, [[Depending On the Writer]], sometimes display surprising competense and appear as a credible threat to Scrooge.
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* [[Depending On the Writer]]: Oh, so very much. For one thing, there's quite a few characters that only appear in stories by some authors whose existences are ignored by others, including cousin Fethry, Birgita McBridge, Donald's superhero alter ago, [[Paperinik New Adventures|Paperinik]], Scrooge's butler Battista, Scrooge's half-brother Rumpus McFowl, Scrooge's ''actual'' brother Gideon McDuck, John D. Rockerduck for most American authors, Flintheart Glomgold for most Italian ones, ectera...
* [[Depending On the Writer]]: Oh, so very much. For one thing, there's quite a few characters that only appear in stories by some authors whose existences are ignored by others, including cousin Fethry, Birgita McBridge, Donald's superhero alter ago, [[Paperinik New Adventures|Paperinik]], Scrooge's butler Battista, Scrooge's half-brother Rumpus McFowl, Scrooge's ''actual'' brother Gideon McDuck, John D. Rockerduck for most American authors, Flintheart Glomgold for most Italian ones, ectera...
** One other thing that's wildly inconsistent between authors is the 'verse's relation to the [[Mickey Mouse Comic Universe]]. Some authors have them share a universe, but have the Mouse stories set in a different town called Mouseton, whereas others have both set in Duckburg same as the Duck stories. Some authors seem to set the stories in separate continuities. As noted under [[Celebrity Paradox]], Don Rosa has an odd take on this: [[Mickey Mouse]] seems to exist within his stories... as a cartoon character.
** One other thing that's wildly inconsistent between authors is the 'verse's relation to the [[Mickey Mouse Comic Universe]]. Some authors have them share a universe, but have the Mouse stories set in a different town called Mouseton, whereas others have both set in Duckburg same as the Duck stories. Some authors seem to set the stories in separate continuities. As noted under [[Celebrity Paradox]], Don Rosa has an odd take on this: [[Mickey Mouse]] seems to exist within his stories... as a cartoon character.
** The Italian-produced comics view the characters through a completely different cultural lens: most evident with Scrooge, who tends to be less of a crafty [[Self Made Man]] and more of a cross between [[Corrupt Corporate Executive]] and [[Cloudcuckoolander]]. It's not rare to see him cross the line from [[Anti Hero]] to straight-up [[Villain Protagonist]], or be used as the villain against Donald (who isn't much better).
** The Italian-produced comics view the characters through a completely different cultural lens: most evident with Scrooge, who tends to be less of a crafty [[Self-Made Man]] and more of a cross between [[Corrupt Corporate Executive]] and [[Cloudcuckoolander]]. It's not rare to see him cross the line from [[Anti-Hero]] to straight-up [[Villain Protagonist]], or be used as the villain against Donald (who isn't much better).
*** Could be because as the Italian universe was set up during the Italian 50's, the era of neorealism, the Donald/Scrooge couple looks like the [[I Blame Communism|class struggle]] rather than Barks' [[Adventure Duo]].
*** Could be because as the Italian universe was set up during the Italian 50's, the era of neorealism, the Donald/Scrooge couple looks like the [[I Blame Communism|class struggle]] rather than Barks' [[Adventure Duo]].
* [[Detectives Follow Footprints]]: The comics get a lot of mileage out of this trope. For instance, they have a whole subtrope for characters exploiting the trope, knowing they are being followed, manipulating the footprints to mislead the pursuers.
* [[Detectives Follow Footprints]]: The comics get a lot of mileage out of this trope. For instance, they have a whole subtrope for characters exploiting the trope, knowing they are being followed, manipulating the footprints to mislead the pursuers.
* [[Dramatic Thunder]]
* [[Dramatic Thunder]]
* [[Durable Deathtrap]]
* [[Durable Deathtrap]]
* [[Eleventy Zillion]]: Used very often.
* [[Eleventy-Zillion]]: Used very often.
* [[Every Car Is a Pinto]]: Mocked.
* [[Every Car Is a Pinto]]: Mocked.
* [[Extreme Omni Goat]]
* [[Extreme Omni Goat]]
* [[Finishing Each Others Sentences|Finishing Each Other's Sentences]]: Huey, Dewey, and Louie are often scripted like this.
* [[Finishing Each Other's Sentences]]: Huey, Dewey, and Louie are often scripted like this.
:: --Since they're--
:: --Since they're--
::--pretty much--
::--pretty much--
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** "What did Scrooge and Goldie did [http://disneycomics.free.fr/Ducks/Rosa/show.php?num=31&loc=D2005-061&s=date in that shack] [http://disneycomics.free.fr/Ducks/Rosa/show.php?num=32&loc=D2005-061&s=date that one night?]", found in [[Don Rosa]]'s own commentary.
** "What did Scrooge and Goldie did [http://disneycomics.free.fr/Ducks/Rosa/show.php?num=31&loc=D2005-061&s=date in that shack] [http://disneycomics.free.fr/Ducks/Rosa/show.php?num=32&loc=D2005-061&s=date that one night?]", found in [[Don Rosa]]'s own commentary.
* [[Great Big Book of Everything]]: The Junior Woodchucks' Guidebook. This is [[Lampshade Hanging|lampshaded]] ''and'' [[Justified Trope|explained]].
* [[Great Big Book of Everything]]: The Junior Woodchucks' Guidebook. This is [[Lampshade Hanging|lampshaded]] ''and'' [[Justified Trope|explained]].
* [[Half Human Hybrid]]: your average person off the streets of Duckburg has a black button nose, may have unusually shaped ears and something of a snout but doesn't really resemble any known animal. Some stories by Barks have actual realistically drawn humans which makes things more confusing.
* [[Half-Human Hybrid]]: your average person off the streets of Duckburg has a black button nose, may have unusually shaped ears and something of a snout but doesn't really resemble any known animal. Some stories by Barks have actual realistically drawn humans which makes things more confusing.
** It can get even weirder when characters appear who are basically humans with a ''beak''! (In fact, Gyro Gearloose comes very close to this.) Occasionally some colourist even has the gall to give such a character a [[Up to Eleven|human skin tone]], instead of white feathers...
** It can get even weirder when characters appear who are basically humans with a ''beak''! (In fact, Gyro Gearloose comes very close to this.) Occasionally some colourist even has the gall to give such a character a [[Up to Eleven|human skin tone]], instead of white feathers...
*** Gyro. Has. ''[http://disneycomics.free.fr/Ducks/Rosa/show.php?num=6&loc=H89174&s=date HUMAN FEET.]''...
*** Gyro. Has. ''[http://disneycomics.free.fr/Ducks/Rosa/show.php?num=6&loc=H89174&s=date HUMAN FEET.]''...
* [[Have a Gay Old Time]]: In the first ''[[The Three Caballeros]]'' comic Rosa did, he changed the lyrics of the eponymous song to remove the verse "the three gay caballeros". In the second one, the line is intact. You could almost swear there's a guy giving them a knowing gaze as they sing it that time...
* [[Have a Gay Old Time]]: In the first ''[[The Three Caballeros]]'' comic Rosa did, he changed the lyrics of the eponymous song to remove the verse "the three gay caballeros". In the second one, the line is intact. You could almost swear there's a guy giving them a knowing gaze as they sing it that time...
* [[Heads or Tails]]: In "Flip Decision", Donald is conned by a charlatan into believing in [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flipism Flipism]: the idea that all of life's choices can be made on the flip of a coin. [[Hilarity Ensues]], of course, though the coin does show uncanny predictive power.
* [[Heads or Tails]]: In "Flip Decision", Donald is conned by a charlatan into believing in [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flipism Flipism]: the idea that all of life's choices can be made on the flip of a coin. [[Hilarity Ensues]], of course, though the coin does show uncanny predictive power.
* [[Historical in Joke]]
* [[Historical In-Joke]]
* [[Homage]]: The two stories with [[The Three Caballeros]]. Complete with them [http://disneycomics.free.fr/Ducks/Rosa/show.php?num=13&loc=D2000-002 performing the theme song].
* [[Homage]]: The two stories with [[The Three Caballeros]]. Complete with them [http://disneycomics.free.fr/Ducks/Rosa/show.php?num=13&loc=D2000-002 performing the theme song].
* [[Impossible Thief]]: Arpin Lusene
* [[Impossible Thief]]: Arpin Lusene
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* [[Money Fetish]]: Scrooge swims in it.
* [[Money Fetish]]: Scrooge swims in it.
* [[Mr. Vice Guy]]: Scrooge and [[Greed]].
* [[Mr. Vice Guy]]: Scrooge and [[Greed]].
* [[Non Idle Rich]]: Scrooge
* [[Non-Idle Rich]]: Scrooge
* [[Not Allowed to Grow Up]]: Huey, Dewey and Louie
* [[Not Allowed to Grow Up]]: Huey, Dewey and Louie
* [[Number One Dime]]: [[Trope Namer]], with Scrooge treasuring the very first dime he ever made for an honest day's work. Because of Magica de Spell's avid pursuit of it to make an amulet that would grant her fortune, it often becomes [[Flanderization|exaggerated]] into being the actual source of Scrooge's wealth. [[Don Rosa]] ''hated'' this interpretation of the #1 Dime.
* [[Number One Dime]]: [[Trope Namer]], with Scrooge treasuring the very first dime he ever made for an honest day's work. Because of Magica de Spell's avid pursuit of it to make an amulet that would grant her fortune, it often becomes [[Flanderization|exaggerated]] into being the actual source of Scrooge's wealth. [[Don Rosa]] ''hated'' this interpretation of the #1 Dime.
** Ironically for someone noted for favoring [[Continuity Porn]] from [[Carl Barks]], he never did take note of the fact that [[Carl Barks]] actually ''did'' write a story in which Scrooge's fortune was aided by possession of a magical artifact; the 1950 story [http://disneycomics.free.fr/Ducks/Barks/show.php?s=date&loc=1950/W_OS_291-02 The Magic Hourglass].
** Ironically for someone noted for favoring [[Continuity Porn]] from [[Carl Barks]], he never did take note of the fact that [[Carl Barks]] actually ''did'' write a story in which Scrooge's fortune was aided by possession of a magical artifact; the 1950 story [http://disneycomics.free.fr/Ducks/Barks/show.php?s=date&loc=1950/W_OS_291-02 The Magic Hourglass].
*** He did, and mentioned it in his commentary of ''[[The Life and Times of Scrooge McDuck]]''. As this was from the period when Barks was still only experimenting with Scrooge's character, and hadn't yet come to interpret him as the penultimate [[Self Made Man]], Rosa decided to quitely ignore this story in his personal continuity.
*** He did, and mentioned it in his commentary of ''[[The Life and Times of Scrooge McDuck]]''. As this was from the period when Barks was still only experimenting with Scrooge's character, and hadn't yet come to interpret him as the penultimate [[Self-Made Man]], Rosa decided to quitely ignore this story in his personal continuity.
* [[Older Hero vs. Younger Villain]]: Scrooge to several members of his [[Rogues Gallery]].
* [[Older Hero vs. Younger Villain]]: Scrooge to several members of his [[Rogues Gallery]].
* [[Phonetic Accent]]: Scrooge's family in ''Life and Times'' as well as Arpin Lusene
* [[Phonetic Accent]]: Scrooge's family in ''Life and Times'' as well as Arpin Lusene
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* [[The Scrooge]]
* [[The Scrooge]]
* [[Secret Ingredient]]: In one comic, Donald insists on putting ketchup on all of Daisy's cooking, much to her annoyance, because it just doesn't taste as good as Grandma Duck's food. When Daisy checks with Grandma, it turns out the old lady's secret ingredient is...ketchup, which she puts in everything.
* [[Secret Ingredient]]: In one comic, Donald insists on putting ketchup on all of Daisy's cooking, much to her annoyance, because it just doesn't taste as good as Grandma Duck's food. When Daisy checks with Grandma, it turns out the old lady's secret ingredient is...ketchup, which she puts in everything.
* [[Self Made Man]]: Scrooge. The point being that the "making" was more important to him than "getting made" in the first place.
* [[Self-Made Man]]: Scrooge. The point being that the "making" was more important to him than "getting made" in the first place.
* [[Shoe Shine Mister]]: Scrooge famously won his Number One Dime shining shoes.
* [[Shoe Shine Mister]]: Scrooge famously won his Number One Dime shining shoes.
* [[Shout Out]]: Rosa never wrote any Mickey Mouse stories, but that doesn't keep him from littering various Hidden Mickeys within his stories.
* [[Shout Out]]: Rosa never wrote any Mickey Mouse stories, but that doesn't keep him from littering various Hidden Mickeys within his stories.
** The D.U.C.K. dedication also counts. <!-- More detail, please. -->
** The D.U.C.K. dedication also counts. <!-- More detail, please. -->
** ''[[Monty Python and The Holy Grail]]'' gets quoted at least twice.
** ''[[Monty Python and The Holy Grail]]'' gets quoted at least twice.
** Arpin Lusene is an obvious nod to ''[[Arsene Lupin]]''.
** Arpin Lusene is an obvious nod to ''[[Arsène Lupin]]''.
** Another one from Arpin : at one point, he refers to Scrooge as "Ze chipskate! Ze '''picsou'''!'. Now, 'picsou' ''is not'' a french word for 'cheapskate'. It is, however, Scrooge's name in the french version of his stories (Balthazar [[Punny Name|Picsou]]).
** Another one from Arpin : at one point, he refers to Scrooge as "Ze chipskate! Ze '''picsou'''!'. Now, 'picsou' ''is not'' a french word for 'cheapskate'. It is, however, Scrooge's name in the french version of his stories (Balthazar [[Punny Name|Picsou]]).
** The afterwords for each chapter in [[The Life and Times of Scrooge McDuck]] actually list all the [[Shout Out|Shout Outs]]. ''[[Citizen Kane (Film)|Citizen Kane]]'' was a popular one.
** The afterwords for each chapter in [[The Life and Times of Scrooge McDuck]] actually list all the [[Shout Out|Shout Outs]]. ''[[Citizen Kane (Film)|Citizen Kane]]'' was a popular one.
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* [[Time Stands Still]]: ''[http://disneycomics.free.fr/Ducks/Rosa/show.php?s=date&loc=D90147 On Stolen Time]'' by Rosa.
* [[Time Stands Still]]: ''[http://disneycomics.free.fr/Ducks/Rosa/show.php?s=date&loc=D90147 On Stolen Time]'' by Rosa.
* [[Tsundere]]: Daisy Duck is one of the more iconic western examples, type A towards Donald. Considering it's Donald, most people consider her mood swings justified.
* [[Tsundere]]: Daisy Duck is one of the more iconic western examples, type A towards Donald. Considering it's Donald, most people consider her mood swings justified.
* [[Villain Team Up]]: ''A Little Something Special''
* [[Villain Team-Up]]: ''A Little Something Special''
* [[Vulcan Has No Moon]]: In one comic, Earth appeared improbably big in the sky of Mars.
* [[Vulcan Has No Moon]]: In one comic, Earth appeared improbably big in the sky of Mars.
* [[Who Wants to Live Forever]]: In the Tony Strobl and [[Carl Barks]] story, "[http://disneycomics.free.fr/Ducks/Strobl/show.php?s=date&loc=W_US_71-01 King Scrooge the First]", the reason the immortal King Khan Khan wants to find the lost treasure of Sagbad so badly is because it contains the antidote to the immortality potion he took when he raided the city centuries ago. He has grown tired of endlessly outliving everything and everyone dear to him, and after getting his hands on it, [http://disneycomics.free.fr/Ducks/Strobl/show.php?num=21&loc=W_US_71-01&s=date gladly eats it and wanders into the desert to join the dust that is all that is left of his civilisation].
* [[Who Wants to Live Forever?]]: In the Tony Strobl and [[Carl Barks]] story, "[http://disneycomics.free.fr/Ducks/Strobl/show.php?s=date&loc=W_US_71-01 King Scrooge the First]", the reason the immortal King Khan Khan wants to find the lost treasure of Sagbad so badly is because it contains the antidote to the immortality potion he took when he raided the city centuries ago. He has grown tired of endlessly outliving everything and everyone dear to him, and after getting his hands on it, [http://disneycomics.free.fr/Ducks/Strobl/show.php?num=21&loc=W_US_71-01&s=date gladly eats it and wanders into the desert to join the dust that is all that is left of his civilisation].
* [[Wonderful Life]]: ''The Duck Who Never Was'' does this to [[Donald Duck]]. [[Tear Jerker|It works]].
* [[Wonderful Life]]: ''The Duck Who Never Was'' does this to [[Donald Duck]]. [[Tear Jerker|It works]].
* [[Worthy Opponent]]: Scrooge and Arpin Lusene.
* [[Worthy Opponent]]: Scrooge and Arpin Lusene.
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[[Category:The Great Depression]]
[[Category:The Great Depression]]
[[Category:Disney Ducks Comic Universe]]
[[Category:Disney Ducks Comic Universe]]
[[Category:Trope]]
[[Category:Trope]][[Category:Pages with comment tags]]

Revision as of 22:17, 8 January 2014

From the Disney Comics centering around Scrooge McDuck and Donald Duck. Best known thanks to the work of Carl Barks, Don Rosa and, of course, Duck Tales.

This is a key part of the Disney Mice and Ducks Comics, which is a Modular Franchise that's formed when this Verse is used in tandem with the Mickey Mouse Comic Universe.

See Carl Barks and Don Rosa for Tropes specific to their stories. Numerous other authors in both America and Europe have written stories set in this universe with some of the more notable and popular ones being Al Taliaferro, Romano Scarpa, Marco Rota, Tony Strobl, Vicar, Daan Jippes, William Van Horn and Fecchi. As such, there's a LOT of diversity between stories depending on who wrote them.

Character list can be found here.

Examples of Disney Ducks Comic Universe include:
  • Adaptation Expansion: Of the Classic Disney Shorts, utilizing several characters introduced there but giving them a more coherent setting and introducing numerous new characters.
  • Always Identical Twins: Huey, Dewey and Louie naturally. It's especially evident in many of the comics storylines, as a lot of the time instead of their trademark red, blue and green the three of them wear identical black shirts.
  • As You Know
  • Badass: Don't. Fuck. With McDuck. Sometimes Donald Duck, too.
  • Becoming the Mask: Has happened with Magica De Spell at least twice, each time under a relatively unknown author. A Gal for Gladstone (sometimes known as A Girl for Gladstone), by Carol & Pat Mc Greal, has her hex away Gladstone Gander's luck and then pretend to be an ordinary girl in order to get a shot at Scrooge's #1 Dime -- she ends up sufficiently touched by Gladstone's sincere devotion to her that she ends up forfeiting the dime so she can save his life. Handled better, in some people's opinion, in Kari Korhonen's Date with a Munchkin, in which she kidnaps Daisy, takes on her shape, and pretends to be her, ending up chosing to stay at a Duckburg ball with Donald rather than go along with her original plan, willingly dispelling the illusion and leaving Donald because she can't bear to hurt Daisy by keeping him, and wondering to herself if what she got to feel during the facade actually makes up for the fact she still didn't get the dime.
  • Breakout Character: Scrooge McDuck started off as a supporting character / antagonist in a one-off Donald Duck story written by Carl Barks as a clear pastiche of Charles Dickens's A Christmas Carol. Fifty years later Donald Duck has shown trouble keeping his own title in publication, while Scrooge is the star of one of the two longest-running classic Walt Disney comic properties (along with the anthology Walt Disney's Comics and Stories).
  • Bungling Inventor: Gyro Gearloose.
  • Celebrity Paradox: Some of Don's Hidden Mickeys refer to Mickey's real-life status as a fictional character, while the Ducks are "real" people. Take into account that Donald started off as Mickey's co-star in the cartoons, and you see how this fits.
  • Comic Book Time
  • Convicted By Public Opinion: A recurring theme. In Pool Sharks by Barks, Donald lets a couple of kids use his brand new swimming pool. This leads to dozens of kids getting wind of it, using and ruining the pool, which leads to their parents getting worked up about accidents happening to their kids, which leads to Donald closing the pool without ever having gotten to use it, which leads to everyone hating Donald. To be frank, the people of Duckburg are dicks.
  • Cool Old Guy / Cool Uncle: Scrooge, all the way.
    • Once Character Development brings him out of being the crusty, skinflint, gouging, near-heartless old miser that he is when Carl Barks first introduces him to the Ducks Universe, anyway.
  • Crouching Moron, Hidden Badass: Donald is the most prominent example of this, most notably when he changes into the Duck Avenger, though he has plenty of Badass moments even when he's just himself.
    • Fethry is a less prominent version of the trope, as he usually succeeds by accident, but he has his moments of this as well.
    • Even the Beagle Boys will, Depending On the Writer, sometimes display surprising competense and appear as a credible threat to Scrooge.
  • Deadpan Snarker: Scrooge. Donald Duck and the nephews have their moments as well.
  • Depending On the Writer: Oh, so very much. For one thing, there's quite a few characters that only appear in stories by some authors whose existences are ignored by others, including cousin Fethry, Birgita McBridge, Donald's superhero alter ago, Paperinik, Scrooge's butler Battista, Scrooge's half-brother Rumpus McFowl, Scrooge's actual brother Gideon McDuck, John D. Rockerduck for most American authors, Flintheart Glomgold for most Italian ones, ectera...
    • One other thing that's wildly inconsistent between authors is the 'verse's relation to the Mickey Mouse Comic Universe. Some authors have them share a universe, but have the Mouse stories set in a different town called Mouseton, whereas others have both set in Duckburg same as the Duck stories. Some authors seem to set the stories in separate continuities. As noted under Celebrity Paradox, Don Rosa has an odd take on this: Mickey Mouse seems to exist within his stories... as a cartoon character.
    • The Italian-produced comics view the characters through a completely different cultural lens: most evident with Scrooge, who tends to be less of a crafty Self-Made Man and more of a cross between Corrupt Corporate Executive and Cloudcuckoolander. It's not rare to see him cross the line from Anti-Hero to straight-up Villain Protagonist, or be used as the villain against Donald (who isn't much better).
      • Could be because as the Italian universe was set up during the Italian 50's, the era of neorealism, the Donald/Scrooge couple looks like the class struggle rather than Barks' Adventure Duo.
  • Detectives Follow Footprints: The comics get a lot of mileage out of this trope. For instance, they have a whole subtrope for characters exploiting the trope, knowing they are being followed, manipulating the footprints to mislead the pursuers.
  • Dramatic Thunder
  • Durable Deathtrap
  • Eleventy-Zillion: Used very often.
  • Every Car Is a Pinto: Mocked.
  • Extreme Omni Goat
  • Finishing Each Other's Sentences: Huey, Dewey, and Louie are often scripted like this.
--Since they're--
--pretty much--
--one character!