Thread:User talk:DocColress/A Case for Cyrus (2)/reply (3)

As I said, I appreciate the discussion anyway. Cyrus as a far-gone Complete Monster as an Alternative Character Interpretation on the YMMV page is possible, but he cannot be an example on the main trope because it's for A: villains who are unambiguously in line with our criteria, and B: are widely agreed upon. Cyrus hits at least three points of the criteria but either arguably fails or definitely fails the rest, and there are fans (and writers) who don't see him as irredeemably pure evil. Contrast with someone like Ghetsis, who does hit just about all points of the criteria and is hardly, if ever, argued to not be a full-stop irredeemably pure evil villain beyond redemption even by people who don't see him as a CM.

As far as actions go, Cyrus is one of the most horrific and heinous villains in the franchise and any franchise I'm a fan of, since his behavior and goals are morally and spiritually disgusting to me. But the actions ultimately reflect a man who's broken, psychotic, psychologically damaged, and mentally disturbed rather than one who's absolutely evil, and he still does have qualities that can be viewed as redeeming, altruistic, sympathetic, or positive. A CM has to be a perfect combo of truly heinous actions plus zero redeeming features, which is a level of evil that gets clearly reflected in the villain's deeds. (The golden rule for this trope here is basically "they're not monsters because they commit heinous atrocities, they commit heinous atrocities because they're monsters"). Despite operating on smaller scales and seeming like small time compared to Cyrus' grandiose plans and actions, villains like Hunter J, Kodai, Ghetsis, Charon, and Ein commit deeds and exhibit behavior that show them to be nothing short of total scum. That, to me, defines the heinous standard in Pokemon, and since we're not as picky as TV Tropes when it comes to "baseline heinousness", they can pass the trope while seemingly more heinous villains like Cyrus cannot.

If you have any more candidates, we can discuss them more. Also, is there any place where I could lay down who in what series' I most definitely do NOT want to see labeled as a CM, and why? That sort of thing might help.