Thread:User talk:DocColress/A Case for Cyrus (2)/reply

Hoh boy. Cyrus is actually a villain I am very adamant in my insistence that he is NOT a Complete Monster. I've gone over the games and different mediums that have Cyrus, and in none of them does he fully qualify. He's a monster no doubt, but too much of a Tragic Monster to qualify. He's super heinous, but he's also complex in a way that makes him potentially redeemable, unlike some monsters whose complexity makes them less redeemable (Frollo, Dewey Novak, Norman Osborn, etc.).

Before I address your points, I'll go over the basic criteria as defined by this wiki. Truly heinous by the standards of the story? Cyrus passes that. His terribleness is played seriously at all times? He passes this too. The story makes no attempt to portray him in any positive way? He fails this one, since not only do his own lackeys see him as inspirational, but even Looker commends him as being impressive. Other characters fear and hate this character? He fails this for similar reasons: not even Cynthia seems to hate him as much as she pities him. The Freudian Excuse criteria is the toughest part since he kind of fails and passes it: what we hear of his backstory actually gives him VERY valid reasons for developing the psychology he has now, but there's no sympathy evoked for him in the present day story until you hear of his past, which is AFTER he's been defeated. He passes "no regret for their crimes" because he wants to be machine-like and have no emotional attachments or feelings towards anything, but fails "devoid of altruistic qualities" because, while he's self centered, he does seriously believe he's being altruistic by making a new "better" world, and while he's not redeemed in the games' story, the possibility of redemption is open to him. We know this because in TWO different manga adaptations, his character ends up getting redeemed. This shows that other writers for the Pokemon series view him as redeemable. This is similar to why characters like Katejina Loos from Victory Gundam couldn't pass the trope. If they're shown as being redeemable elsewhere, then they were never all that irredeemable to begin with.

Now first off, the biggest issue here is that you have a HUGE misconception that many people (even the writers of the anime) have due to the phrasing of Cyrus' line being unclear. He did NOT want to make a world "for him alone." He "sought a new world entirely for himself", as in for himself and not for anyone else in Team Galactic. He said that his speech to his followers was true up to "Me, Cyrus." after which he proceeded to rant about the glory of creating a new world "FOR TEAM GALACTIC." The lie was that Team Galactic was never going to obtain the power to create and rule the new world: only he would. Team Galactic was his tool, his means to his end. So "entirely for myself" meant "entirely for my own reasons and for me alone to become the god of time/space", not "for me alone to exist in." If he was the new universe's only inhabitant, what would he be God over? In fact, his plan was the exact opposite of what many people think. He'd be the only one to NOT live in the new world because he'd be up in the heavens sustaining the universe as it's god. Everyone else would inherit the new world, but they'd have their spirit forcibly removed from them. That's why he tells the PC "one day, you will awaken in a world of my making - a world without spirit." It wasn't just to spite you - it was confirmation that there would be other people existing in the new world, which makes sense because otherwise what's the point? It's sick and horrifying, but in his warped mind, he sees this as a self sacrifice. He's willing to give up his individual existence in order to give everyone a world that he deems perfect. The problem is that it'd be perfection as defined by him, an obvious madman with deep psychological issues, and that's why he needed to be stopped.

While letting you save the Lake Trio isn't a Pet the Dog since he was already done with them and ready to start his destructive plan, and he in facts derides you for your compassion in trying to save them, in that same scene he also commends you and admits he finds aspects of you to be respectable and worthwhile, and he gives you a free Master Ball out of RESPECT. That actually IS a generous gesture on his part, since he didn't have to do it at all.

Giratina is not exactly The Devil so much as it is the keeper of the Underworld, like Osiris or Hades. It was thrown into the Distortion World because that's literally the only place it can thrive - it's role is to keep that world together. Primal Dialga and Darkrai from Mystery Dungeon, or even Ghetsis, were more Devil-like. And it didn't show up to stop Cyrus - it showed up because time and space were being distorted. It grabbed Cyrus and dragged him into the Distortion World once it saw he was behind the distortion, but it didn't know that at the time it first showed up. And this even feels smaller in comparison to the Pokemon God, Arceus, dragging Purple Eyes with him in Guardian Signs, so Cyrus falls short in comparison to more evil and selfish Omnicidal Maniac.

Cyrus, Ghetsis, and Lysandre have all had moments of Villainous Breakdown coupled with Redemption Rejection. There's one key thing to note, though - out of all of them, only one has his moment NOT played for evoking any pity or sorrow. That one being Ghetsis. Both Cyrus and Lysandre are, in the end, shown to be more pitiful and broken rather than truly pure evil. Cyrus and Lysandre broke down and rejected redemption because they were so set in their madness that they weren't willing to accept or embrace the truth, whereas Ghetsis broke down and rejected redemption because his heart was completely black and he could not comprehend his "son" showing more strength of character than he, the supposedly "perfect" Ghetsis.

I do agree that Cyrus in the present-day story is not at all sympathetic. Once you know his story, he's more pitiful and more tragic, but not sympathetic. I can empathize with him, but not sympathize or get behind his goals, logic, or behavior since he's too far gone into madness and evil. However, his backstory actually goes beyond just parents issues. The implication is that because so much pressure was put upon him and he was so hurt by other people, he found solace in machines because they had no emotions and performed efficiently, exactly as they were programmed. And this caused Cyrus to look at the issues in his life and the lives of others, and start seeing the world as if it were a broken computer, a broken system that needed to be mended and repaired. So if he could become a god, destroy the universe and recreate it devoid of the spirit that he believed was responsible for all of it's ills, than he could essentially "reboot" reality and install a new programming into every living being, one that would make them behave more like machines who followed their programming with efficiency and logic. Cyrus believed that to be the key to world peace, which also explains why he was modeling himself to behave more machine-like than human - he was acting the way he hoped everyone would act in his new world. This also indicates a self breaking cycle: he started out with pure ideals, but the more pressure got put upon him, the more he turned to machines. The more he turned to machines, the more detached from humanity he became. The more detached he became, the less moral he became. And the less moral he became, the more extreme he became with his quest to make the world a better place. He basically broke his own moral compass without truly realizing what he was breaking. Lastly, the issue with his parents wanting him to be perfect adds a Freudian angle to his psychology and plan. If he were to become god of time/space, creator and master of the universe, then he'd be the most divine and perfect thing in existence, finally being as perfect as his parents wanted him to be.

Also, while Cyrus is an Omnicidal Maniac no doubt, a lot of people tend to focus on the "destruction" part of his plan as if that were his main objective, but it wasn't. His objective was actually creation: God is more known for creation than destruction. Cyrus wanted to become a deity in order to create a new world that he felt would be a better world, going by his standards of perfection and goodness. Obliterating the existing world was the means to this end. He'd kill every living thing, but then he'd also restore them back to life minus their spirit. Which is horrific in itself, but still something more than just mass murder.

The Crobat thing implies both dog petting AND pragmatism. Golbat evolves into Crobat if it loves it's trainer, but that doesn't say the trainer has to love Golbat - only treat it kindly enough for it to love him or her. That's likely what Cyrus did: he tended to Golbat's needs and treated it nicely without ACTUALLY loving the Pokemon itself. So it's kind of a redeeming quality, but it's kind of not. Which is sort of a trend with Cyrus' character.

With other characters, most of them actually don't seem to harbor that much resentment. While Saturn drew the line at the removal of spirit, he had still been inspired by Cyrus' ideals and charisma and was willing to follow him even whilst knowing about the destruction of the existing world, just to see if he could really pull it off. Mars and Jupiter were loyal to Cyrus even after he was gone, turning their backs on Charon because he wasn't as good a leader as Cyrus had been. Looker flat out complemented his skills at swaying masses of followers, and Cynthia, while angry at him, really seemed to want him to see reason and ultimately expressed pity for him after he had gone, since he couldn't understand the good that spirit and emotion gives people - including compassion, which is what she was feeling for him at the moment. And Giratina had no standards against Cyrus personally - only his actions. Any human could do the same thing and Giratina would react the same way, so to Giratina, Cyrus was just a random insane human causing trouble to time and space.

One extra thing worth noting is that, in Pokemon, the heinous standard is less straightforward than in some other works. Usually the villains who go all out in pure selfish evil on a smaller scale end up being worse than villains who operate on a larger one. In the anime, Hunter J is worse than Cyrus even though her actions weren't as destructive to the world and countless lives. In the Diamond And Pearl Adventure manga, Charon is worse than Cyrus for similar reasons. In the main games, Ghetsis is worse than Cyrus and Lysandre despite operating on a less wide scale and posing less of a danger to people's lives. Need we even get into Purple Eyes or the lead Cipher admins?

Cyrus is a character who in-universe thinks he's a Well Intentioned Extremist and truly wants to be one because he truly wants to help others and make the world better, but is really just a cruel, selfish, ego-maniacal Knight Templar with delusions of righteousness. But he's not thoroughly iredeemably pure evil enough to pass the trope's qualifications, he doesn't want to be the sole occupant of his universe (again, he'd be the only one NOT on Earth in the new universe), and he was not even a straightforward mass murderer like Lysandre (and AZ for that matter) or a serial torturer like Ghetsis. He simply has too many vaguely positive or pitiful traits, not nearly as much of a bad rep in-universe as Ghetsis got, and has found redemption in two official manga. He's basically this series' answer to Gendo Ikari - a terrible man who wants to play God, but whose complexities ultimately pull him away from this trope rather than to it. So no, he doesn't count as an example. Ever.

While you misunderstood Cyrus quite a good deal, I'm actually not upset that you brought this up. It's good to clear up why a character should or should not pass the trope, and it's something we ought to do more of. :)